Dar
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« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2008, 10:43:11 pm » |
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I still think that - rather than change the mechanics of magic so it becomes a chore and horrendously boring (8 hour rests, tiny spell durations) - it's best just to stop people rolling magic users. Make magic something *anyone* can learn, and use special items, ritual scripts and DM-run events to introduce it.
In a world where there are no mages, think of the value of something as simple as a 1use/day book that allows the person carrying it to cast Shield.
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McPhearsom
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« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2008, 10:02:36 am » |
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By "low magic world" do you mean that magical items are rare, or do you mean that magic itself is rare (so there will be less spell casters and high level magic is very difficult to obtain)? If you simply limit the items available then the spellcasting class have a serious advantage, since they can just magically create whatever tools they need, if you limit spellcasters then the classes that make good use of items will have an advantage, if you don't limit anything then you just have everyone wanting to make powerbuilds that combine magic and combat ability (which is basically what the default cleric/druid is). To say that magic will be limited by RP methods assumes that players won't think about what makes their character the most powerful which I just don't see being the case. Who decides if a player chose their character for a RP reason or just to be uber? You'd need a team of DMs monitoring everyone just to make sure they don't throw magic around carelessly as if it was nothing. You could always require applications for magic users, but then that assumes spellcasters are automatically better, which isn't always the case and certainly not at low levels where you can only cast a few spells before needing to rest (witht he exception of warlocks). I don't know how you plan to limit magic without editing at least some, or probably most spell scripts. If something exists in the game, players will use it, RP or not, so unless you plan to have a small army of police DMs to ensure magic is used appropriately it might be an idea to start thinking of a list of spell nerfs to balance magic users with the lack of magical items. If you go too far and make magic very weak then you can always improve it later and the players will love you for "adding" something, but if you just ignore it and then later try to reduce overpowered spells you'll have a lot of angry spellcaster players complaining at you for "taking something away". You'll also have less issues early on with overpowered, fast leveled characters that complain about having nothing to do because everything was initially too easy for their overpowered character build. Players tend to think 2+1 is worth more than 4-1 because negative actions are met with negative thoughts 
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Grinning Fool
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« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2008, 10:36:11 am » |
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Just restricting the amount of magic available; potential restrictions on the number of spellcasters. Social stigma against use of magic, at least in our starting country.
I'm not particularly interested in trying to balance classes against each other for PvP, as that's not the focus of the server; and they aren't designed to balance against each other in the first place.
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McPhearsom
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« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2008, 06:19:22 pm » |
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I never actually suggested balance in PvP terms, although it may seem like it from that post. Really the balance issues for magic users are focused on their broad range of abilities which non-magical characters simply can't do. Such spells as invisibility, summoning and all the buffs can make certain monsters very easy to beat since the AI scripts won't figure out if a player is simply not worth attacking or is invulnerable to their attacks. There's also the RP issue, if for example a warlock can just click his fingers and turn invisible any time he feels like it, how are characters supposed to react to that situation? An amazing ability, or just a regular action eveyone has seen before? Then there's the party mechanics of "hey you, go invisible and scout the area, oh yeah and then buff and heal me, k thx" kind of attitude that is commonplace due to the general availabilty of magic in D&D settings where PCs may been seen to just assume magic is available to solve all their problems.
The biggest complaint I think players have when it comes to spellcasting characters is that they often assume too many roles (don't need a rogue, I have knock and find traps and my familiar can scout the area and it doesn't really matter if it gets killed) (don't need a monk since my cleric can cast spells and be good in melee and self heal) etc. If spellcasting characters were limited to specific types of spells based on playing style choices then players will more likely seek other PCs to balance a party rather than make casters capable of dealing with anything simply by picking the "best" spells.
On top of this is the arguably standard idea that Clerics (followed by druids and wizards) are the most power character classes, simply because there are basically no limits to the spells they can learn/cast so RP enforcement is required to ensure they don't use spells the game gives them access to but their character really shouldn't be using based on their alignment and other attributes.
Perhaps each spell needs a requirement for use or at least an explanation of how and why your character can cast it? Maybe the effectiveness of magic could vary between areas (certain spells restricted only to outdoors or natural or hot/cold environments). Perhaps spells should be restricted to alignment (eg. must be non-good to cast non-good spells) or maybe the spell lists themselves could be limited so that characters can only choose spells of a similar nature (clerics may focus just on protection/healing or smiting/damage, sorcerers could focus on a single element).
Another aspect of casting that causes issues in a low magic setting is that by default spells start powerful as soon as your character learns them. Instead of learning a small fireball and increasing the power slowly each level, the character levels up and suddenly they can cast a giant ball of fire at anything they want and a few levels later the damage may double, and so on.
It's a lot of work to try and modify spellcasting classes to suit a particular world setting however I also think it's not something that can just be left for the players to decide how to RP. I can't see many people actually choosing not to use their character's spells as much as possible just to appear more "normal" compared to the non magical PCs or choosing spells that have a very limited use because better spells wouldn't be suitable for their character. Either you tell the players "this is what your characters can/can't do" by writing a large rule book, or you modify the game itself to add/remove certain features, or you "educate" players on the "correct" way to RP their characters in the hope they'll play your style and not their style. Either way you have to decide exactly how you intend characters to be played on your server so you don't end up with player conflicts over how magic, RP or anything else is allowed to be used.
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Painwalker
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2008, 02:20:15 am » |
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I really don't think it needs to be as complicated as that. When it comes to a low-magic world, what we mean is that any magic you come across should be regarded as special and important (with such PCs also being worth the same).
While we won't be making magic items unavailable (there will still be some retailers who cater to the more wealthy adventurers) you won't find a "magic shop" available in a town whose sole support is its export of potatoes and cattle. More specifically, for a population that is generally non-magic, some more wealthy areas that could support it may outlaw it outright (various reasons why).
Also, keep in mind that clerical power is much more welcome than Arcane power is simple because it is easier to understand where the power comes from (this is a world where the existence of gods is obvious). This could mean that you could very easily pass yourself off as a cleric and the only ones who would really even know would be the actual clerics themselves.
The PCs will be more than able to play whatever they want for RP, but the world will react differently to them in regards to how they are viewed; it wouldn't do to tell a PC how to play or not play their character, but actions have consequences in what is supposed to be a (more or less) living world. A well traveled adventuring party might be more familiar with magic and be able to legitimately act like a standard party (as per your example), but farmers, commoners and other NPCs will be in both awe and fear of someone who flicks their fingers to cause fire, ice, monsters and what-have-you out of thin air. I sure would (I think I would probably be a Wizard IRL if I had the choice TBH).
Basically, this just means that for RP against NPCs, you'll have to keep the idea in mind that magic is pretty bizarre and scary. You won't be getting killed monsters and such dropping potions and scrolls as treasure without them being particularily magical beings. If you want to craft magical goods as a magic user, you'll have to search for a proper lab for such things as opposed to just heading to any given city that would normally be rich enough to support it. This does not eliminate or remove any magical effectiveness from magic PCs, it just means they have to keep their heads about them in regards to their interactions with NPCs; PCs who see magic regularily could understandibly act like normal PCs who see magic regularily. PCs are the exception in any given society!
Generally, to put this into perspective, if every PC was a caster, this would still result in having a tiny percentage of the world being actual casters; the world itself can not rely on magic to get things done, mainly because it is simply not that available. The world adjusts for this to survive.
There are many other reasons that some people will be in fear of an in awe of magic users, but I think I've blabbed enough.
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Whenever my co-worker says something that makes my head hurt by it's sheer stupidity, I often wonder about the merits of being deaf. "Why did you put the deer there then if you didn't want me to kill them?"- The last words of any PC
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Grinning Fool
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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2008, 07:11:06 am » |
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Well said.
The other consideration ... well, let's make a comparison. It's kind of like being upset that the man over there carrying a gun is able to command more respect than his pocketknife.
Whether rare or common, magic is /powerful/. A fireball can clear out an entire room of enemies in one blast, something a fighter could never do. But that's the nature of magic in a D&D-based fantasy world - sure, we could change it, but that takes away from the overall enjoyment of the game for most players. The concept of magic is fundamental to a fantasy world.
Also keep in mind the underlying philosophy of the server: we're not trying to force any one "right" style of RP. As long as people aren't disruptive to overall gameplay, and make some effort to RP, then why not let them do what they want to do? This will probably cost us the "hard-core" RPers; but -- having played it both ways in the past -- it will generally make for a more relaxed, enjoyable environment for most players. Certainly it is easier to script and DM for when you don't have to worry about enforcing a large number of (seemingly) arbitrary RP requirements.
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Painwalker
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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2008, 07:51:44 am » |
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On further note and in an attempt to clarify as much as possible, I will put this in an even better perspective.
The thing about a standard magic world is that magic is readily available. It is expected that potions and spells are easy to get to and a part of what runs things or creates things and many other utalitarian purposes. Are you a wizard or sorceror? Okay, so what? There are lots like you, to the point that there are many different guilds and groups that you could feasibly join and grow in power, to the point that only after a long time and considerable effort (as well as some really exceptional accomplishements) you finally acheive some kind of recognition.
In our world, the Khalidine world, magic is low. What does this mean?
This means that normally when you'd be in a world where everyone is a caster, YOU are the caster. They need power? YOU are who they go to. A fighter needs a poewrful sword to kill an opponent that totally outclasses him? YOU are the only one he must go to. You are all-powerful, and people are nearly falling over to please you in order to keep your favor. You are one of the rare few that are disciplined enough, or one of the rare born with super-natural abilities that outshine even the most veteran experts, and this is respected with either fear or admiration, dependant on how YOU choose to express it in the world.
When you join a magic guild, you are now part of a truly elite group that stands nearly alone in a planet full of magically inept.You see things that would split a normal mind in two. You visit places that the most prepared expedition could never reach. You craft your ability further, to the point where you become nearly godlike compared to the average man with the help of these exceptional experts.
You can split reality apart and summon creatures from other dimensions as your play-things or bodyguards; YOU are in command. Fire, ice, acid, electricity and other energies come as easily as breathing the right words.
In a low magic world, you are one of the very few people that can accomplish things that are normally un-doable. You are the exception, and you can accomplish the impossible. This makes you very important, and extremely powerful.
In a low magic world, magic users and casters are held in higher regards as to their power and ability. You aren't a farmer who picked up a sword: You are either an expert in a rare and nearly impossible to understand craft, or you are one of the most rare breeds of humanoids that can use magical ability by your own willpower (and some somatic and verbal components of course as normal).
Consider a low-magic world as an oppurtunity to really be the exception in something that is WAY more special than in a normally magic-saturated world. Will you be godlike? Comparitively, though I'm not sure how the gods would react depending on how far you took it. Will people bow to you? Probably, if you demanded it and you were a proven caster with unmeasurable power in their eyes, though the local lord and law might take that kind of attitude into consideration. Will you go to places and see things not normally seen? Yes, because you'll have access to unnatural resources available to only the elite few, which you are now a part of if you are a caster.
The only other thing I must say is that history is full of people who took this too far. Spells are powerful, yes, but they require effort and resources as well, so you aren't invincible, and the ruins you'll find in Khalidine are testimony to that. Magic is special and powerful, and for the most part tolerated, but it is an almost unfair advantage in a world of regular working men and women who have to do everything the old fashioned way with math and mechanics, so there will be many who will be against someone who doesn't need to have the support of a lot of people to get what they want done, done.
You are powerful. You are rare. You are ultimate. You are at the top, but you are nearly alone. You will need to be careful, and you will need the companionship of people in order to survive. Keep this in mind, and you'll have a great time.
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:31:57 am by Painwalker »
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Whenever my co-worker says something that makes my head hurt by it's sheer stupidity, I often wonder about the merits of being deaf. "Why did you put the deer there then if you didn't want me to kill them?"- The last words of any PC
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Grinning Fool
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« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2008, 08:51:10 am » |
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While that's a bit more extreme (and may give some PCs delusions of grandeur  ) the general principal is the same. As always, though, being the most powerful mage on the continent won't help one bit in commanding respect if you haven't been interacting consistently with PCs and NPCs.
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Painwalker
Knight of Modeling
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« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2008, 09:09:01 am » |
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Exactly. You are only one person. I only wished to highlight that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to be in a low-magic world.
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Whenever my co-worker says something that makes my head hurt by it's sheer stupidity, I often wonder about the merits of being deaf. "Why did you put the deer there then if you didn't want me to kill them?"- The last words of any PC
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